Wednesday, March 11, 2009

House-buying beginnings

Now that we're in Denver, and we know we want to settle here, Torsten and I have started dipping a toe into the whole house-hunting endeavor. Not REALLY, in that we haven't started applying for mortgages and we don't plan to buy right away. But we do want to get to know the area, think about price ranges and neighborhoods, and take a look at the different houses that are available at different price points. We also want to figure out what our priorities are in a house and what areas we're willing to compromise on.

We're starting to figure out our parameters, but we're also in over our heads, I think. We don't want a mansion. We also don't want a tiny starter home that doesn't have room for a family. This isn't the market to buy a little house under the assumption that you can flip it for a profit in a couple years and move on to something bigger. We'd rather spend a bit more up front, lock in a low mortgage rate, and stay in the house pretty much forever.

So we want three bedrooms plus an office/guest room, so that we can have two kids and a bedroom for each of them, plus a place for visitors. We'd like a fireplace. We much prefer hardwood to carpeting. We'd rather a house that's recently been brought up to date rather than trying to deal with contractors and whatnot to update it ourselves. We don't want it to be unmanageably large, but we don't want to feel like we're on top of one another once we have a bigger family, either.

And we found a house that is very nearly perfect. It's two stories. It has hardwood upstairs and down. It has four bedrooms plus a fifth in the full finished basement. It's recently been redone. It has a two-car garage. The kitchen is spectacular. It has a living room and a family room, each with a fireplace. The bedrooms are spacious, with large closets. It has a really nice yard and patio. It's in a good neighborhood in a good school district, not downtown but not too far away either. It's near a light rail station and a Whole Foods. It's in our price range; in fact, it's cheaper than we would have expected. Literally, there is not one thing that we would change about the house itself.

But its location has a flaw, which may or may not be fatal. It is literally right next to the interstate. But it's not as bad as it sounds. The yard is roomy, and there's a fence, and then behind the fence is a huge gray concrete wall, and on the other side of the wall is the highway. You can't see it, and certainly you would never end up with a car accident in your backyard. But you can hear it.

I actually don't think I mind. You can't hear it in the house, only in the backyard, and because it's a highway and not a city street, there's no stop and go and honking and whatnot. The cars going by make a steady whooshing sound, almost like white noise. Torsten thinks he would mind it more than I do. There are probably ways to minimize the noise, like planting trees along the wall, or putting in some sort of water feature in the backyard.

I also like the wall itself, because it means that you have total privacy. Nobody can ever build a house directly behind ours so that we can see into each other's windows. I like that.

So of course this raises questions. We have a realtor but we didn't exactly seek her out. She responded to an email query and has sort of become our realtor by default. She has basically dismissed this house as a contender, saying that the noise may not bother us now but it might bother us later. She might be right, but on the other hand I think it's likely that we would get used to the noise and stop noticing it altogether.

The realtor also says that we have to think about the implications of the highway when we consider trying to resell the house someday, which is true as well. But then she did research into other houses on that block and said that the highway wall doesn't seem to have affected the prices much. Plus, we aren't trying to make money off our house. We just want a house at a locked-in mortgage rate so we can pay it off and own it and not have to worry about renting and moving and inflation and all the rest.

So I can't totally figure out why she is trying to talk us out of this house. It's a good deal because it was a fix and flip and the flip part hasn't happened due to the market. Its price has been reduced by $54,000 since it first went on the market five months ago, and we could certainly get it for well under its list price. It has everything we want. And what she is telling us is that to get another house that meets our criteria in that or a similar neighborhood, we'd need to pay $100,000 more, at least. Or else we'll have to live 45 minutes outside of town.

So then the question is, would we pay $100,000 more to live in that house not by the highway? Or is the highway not really an issue for us, and therefore it's actually good that we've found the perfect house by the highway because it saves us some money? Except that she says that in the past the highway hasn't affected the price... but maybe now in such a buyers' market, people can afford to be pickier? Really, which houses sell and which don't seems to be kind of a random thing as far as I can tell.

And why isn't the realtor discussing this with us? Does she somehow know better than we do what things we should and shouldn't put up with? My mother suggested, and I think this is a very good idea, that we see if we can get in touch with someone else who lives on that block, and talk to them about what it's like to live next to that wall.

In the meantime, we aren't really doing anything. Our realtor knows what we're looking for, and we've seen some other houses and lots of other listings, but nothing that we've liked nearly as much, even at much higher prices. And that's the other thing. Even if we did decide to pay $100k more for the same house not on the highway, such a house doesn't necessarily exist. We have very specific things that we look for in a house, and it's rare to find them all in one place.

So, we're looking, trying to get a feel for things in and out of our price range, for comparison. And so far everything that I've seen makes me like this house on the highway more. I could see raising our family in that house. But we aren't in a hurry. Although I know that I'll be very sad if we find out the house has sold. That isn't a reason to rush into anything, but maybe it's a sign?

I just don't know. We've never done this before, and that's not helping either. But I really, really love that house, and so does Torsten. I guess that's a starting point.

44 comments:

  1. It kind of sounds to me like your realtor is applying the issues *she* would have with that house to you guys, even though you are totally different people. I think talking to the neighbors would be a good idea, but in the end only you two will know whether or not the noise will bother you. And her argument about the resale seems to be pretty moot. Although you didn't mention, does it take those houses longer to sell than the ones not near the highway, even if they sell at a comparable price? That might be a consideration too. But very few people find and can afford a house they love the first time they buy. And like you said, plants and/or a water feature could make the noise issue almost moot.

    I guess the question is, do either of you dislike the noise so much that it is worth paying the extra $100,000 (plus interest for the term of your loan)? It seems like that's what it boils down to, but maybe I'm oversimplifying.

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  2. First: Do NOT listen to the realtor. She brings her own bias and does not know you. Your gut will be a much better advisor.

    Why not take Montana on some walks through the neighbourhood and talk to the people that already live there? Just by walking down the street you'll get a good sense of how noisy the traffic might be. There may also be issues with dust/dirt that you didn't consider. Of course, remember that people may gloss over the problems out of a sense of pride for their own homes.

    The house we live in is on a busy street and that's its only downside. Had we overthought it, we might not have purchased it and that would have been a mistake.

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  3. Yeah, 100K seems steep to not live near the highway. And I was just reading an article the other day about those sound barrier walls they build near the highway, how they are now down to such a science that the developers can rate how many decibels you'll hear at peak traffic times. At least, that's how it is in MA. I think you'd definitely get used to it, and if the house is perfect, go for it!

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  4. I think house buying is such an individual decision that no one can really predict what will make a house sell better than another house. Each person or family has specific criteria that are important to them, and while there are some trends, I'm sure, there's enough difference that any prediction can be wrong. The house sounds wonderful, and like a very good deal. I think your mother's idea of talking to someone else in the neighborhood is a great one. If the noise drives them crazy, they can tell you why. Best wishes whatever you decide.

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  5. Frankly, I don't think it's a deal breaker. The convenience of living near a freeway is, for me, worth any small amount of noise.

    Plus, that house sounds perfect and like it's a GREAT price.

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  6. If you love the house, go with your gut. I would definitely talk to neighbors and take Montana on walks to scout the neighborhood out. Also find another realtor. If she is trying to change your mind she may not have your true interest at heart. It is always good to look at lots of houses and then decide. But if you love it great!

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  7. I agree with your mom about talking with people who live along the wall. Your realtor might have ulterior motives; i.e, trying to get you to buy a more expensive house so she gets a better commission.

    FWIW, we live on a dead-end street about half a block from the freeway (actually, where THREE freeways intersect) and the noise has never bothered us. You're right; it's like white noise and sometimes even sounds like rushing water. Occasionally you can hear a semi downshifting or something, but it's never been an issue.

    Go with your gut feelings about the house.

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  8. I agree with your mom. Talk to others in the neighborhood. That will have two benefits: learning about the wall, and learning what it's like to actually *live* there.

    You may consider that she's discouraging you from buying the house because she knows that a similar house will cost over $100K more - netting her more profit. I'm not saying that she's shady, just that realtors are generally looking out for their own interests (as, I suppose, they should).

    The house-buying game is a crazy ride. Both of you loving the house is a great start, as you said. The wall plus trees would probably be fine - were it me, I'd be on the phone shopping banks to get pre-approved. Don't miss out because of your realtor's likes/dislikes!

    I think it sounds great... you should post some pictures so we can all "ooh" and "aah" with you. ;)

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  9. Re: noise. I've lived right next to a train track and eventually did not even hear it (visitors always remarked on it). Currently we are in the flight path for DCA and while I hear neighbors complain about it sometimes, it simply does not register with me. Maybe your realtor is a more like those people who *hear* more and can't tune things out.

    Maybe it's because I've got a bunch of kids that transportation-type noise is nothing to me.

    Talk to your neighbors but you might get a mixed response--some might notice it and others might not.
    The house sounds perfect, though!

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  10. In high school I worked part-time as a receptionist at a real estate company. Things may be COMPLETELY different now, but back THEN, commission amounts were very different for the realtors depending on which houses they helped sell. Let's say commission was 6% of the house sale price. If a realtor helped sell a house that she also helped list (that is, she worked for the buyer AND the seller), she got all 6% for herself. If she helped sell a house that was listed by another realtor in her agency, she got 3%. And if she helped sell a house that was listed by a realtor in another agency, she got 2%. Also, some houses had special deals: the commission cut might be higher/lower for other reasons, or the agency might have arranged a lower commission to help lower the price, or the seller of the house might be someone's brother-in-law so they're doing it without commission or WHATEVER.

    So realtors can be VERY OPINIONATED about which house you buy, for reasons that have nothing to do with you or the house itself, but only with how much money the realtor can make. If you pay $100,000 more for a house she's listed, for example, that could make a $12,000 paycheck difference to her.

    But, as I say, this was in the '90s and it was in a different state, so maybe this doesn't apply anymore. I do think, though, that anyone making money off your decision can have their opinions salted.

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  11. My fiance is a realtor, and a pretty good one at that. He would be so upset with your realtor (I am too!). It definitely sounds like she is putting her issues out there, and not dealing with yours. As my fiance would tell you, "You have to live there, not me. Make sure it's right for YOU."
    I would check with the neighbors and see what they think. Drive or walk through the neighborhood at different hours of the day (weekdays and weekends) and see how you feel about the noise. Finding a house that great is gonna be hard to top! Good luck.

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  12. I agree with everybody else: your realtor is being kind of crappy. You should watch the show 'property virgins' on HGTV- they show people who are first-time home-buyers and the houses they look at. It gives you good ideas about what to look for and what you may forget.

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  13. We live near the highway. We always have. You get used the the noise, really.

    Also, ditch the evil realtor. She wants you to buy a more expensive house because she needs more commission because nothing's selling right now (just a hypothesis). Get one that you are more comfortable with.

    This house sounds really great. I hope everything works out the way you would like it to.

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  14. A quick cautionary word on the "ditch the realtor" advice: it's good advice, probably, given that she seems unresponsive to your needs. But if you end up making an offer on a house that she showed you first, she may well believe that she is entitled to "her" commission because she was the one who "found" that listing for you- even if you end up using another realtor. We ended up not making an offer on a place we liked because the SELLER'S realtor claimed she should be entitled to the full 6% because we were "unrepresented" when we came to see the place, even though I told her we had a realtor, he was just not with us that night. There was lots of arguing back and forth, and she threatened to sue us, and our realtor, and it was, on the whole, terrifically unpleasant.

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  15. It sounds like a great house, and the interstate would usually make me cringe. BUT, the way you described it doesn't sound bad at all.
    Also, think how many trees you could plant for 100k. ;)

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  16. If you really like the house, don't let the realtor talk you out of it. Not to knock her, but she will benefit greatly in her commission if you go with the house that's $100k more - so that may be why she's pushing a more costly house.

    Talking to neighbors seems like a great idea. You may also want to try to visit the area at different times of the day to see if the noise level changes due to rush hour, etc.

    My condo is pretty close to the highway in Atlanta, and honestly it doesn't bother us. We have another building behind us, then the sound wall, then the highway is right there. The noise from the cars sounds kind of like rushing water. You can't hear it from inside, and you hardly notice it from the back porch.

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  17. Maybe the realtor knows the house is haunted, or knows the neighbors are horrible, but she can't legally tell you that?

    I'm sorry. That's not helping, is it? :-)

    I would say don't rush into anything. If you haven't even talked to a mortgage broker yet, and you were just sort of looking around at this point and not planning to buy yet, don't let one house that seems perfect make you do something on impulse. On the other hand, though, trust your gut. If this feels right, maybe there's a reason. Either way, good luck!

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  18. I grew up in a house about a quarter mile from the highway, and right next to our property was a very busy road. You really do get used to the noise. The only think I would worry about would be pollution. But then again, how much worse could living by a highway in CO be than living in DC?

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  19. I think I would hesitate on the house too, BUT: if it's the best house you can find for your money, then do it. If you're going to get a nearly-as-awesome house without the freeway nearby, I'd go with plan B. Because she's right, living near a freeway has definite drawbacks in terms of noise, smell (at times), and resale value.

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  20. I think others have said it best. At the end of the day, this decision is up to you and Torsten. And if you think you can live with the noise. And don't have too many concerns about the highway infringing on your lifestyle (any chance they'll ever expand the highway and take your property away from you?), then it sounds like it's a good potential fit for you. Talk to others in the neighborhood. Go there during times you'd be outside and see if it's bothersome. Make sure the neighborhood feels safe for late night walks with Montana. And weigh whether you'll be upset if one day the price IS affected by its location. Good luck!

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  21. Ooooh! How exciting! I used to live in front of a train/trolley station, and even the 5:00 am ding-ding-dinging became familiar and welcome...a highway you can't hear from the house that you absolutely love sounds perfect, frankly.

    xox

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  22. #1. I like your mother's idea. Talk to the people that live there! Esp. if you don't have nervous tummy about these things.

    #2. Man...take everything your realtor (any realtor) says with a grain of salt. Also, don't rule out contacting/ using a different realtor (again with the potential nervous tummy problems, though).

    #3. I think I know totally where that is! The area, I mean, not the HOUSE. I can picture the interstate as I drive by.

    #4. One other thing to think about re: interstate is lead levels (just to throw something else in the mix). You might not mind now but you MIGHT get obsessed when you have kids. Then again, you might NOT. But lead levels near major highways tend to be higher.

    #5. Good luck! And enjoy the hunt! Which I so, so did not!

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  23. My heart starts racing and I get all sweaty just thinking about the home buying process. It goes without saying that you will live there, not your realtor. While it's important to point out the possible noise from the highway, it's also important to let you decide for yourselves what's important for you and your family.

    I would just go back at different times of the day and see what the noise is like, if it's bothersome or if you don't even notice it after a bit.

    We looked at SO MANY HOUSES before I found one with the things we were looking for. It's rare to find a house you're so in love with that feels like home so that may be your compromise point.

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  24. I would definitely talk to other people living by the highway. My aunt lived by a freeway, and inside the house, no one noticed. But the freeway was such that outdoor parties in her fabulous yard (the reason they bought the house) was difficult because of the noise level.

    But no one can decide what is right for you, except you.

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  25. I say, this is such a buyer's market, and you have time to spare (you just signed a lease on an apartment, no?) keep looking and it's likely that eventually you'll find something that's even more perfect. Or you could put an offer on this house that's almost unbelievably low, and see what they counter with. It might be even lower than what you'd consider paying now.

    Plus, it's always fun to go house hunting.

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  26. I know where it is you're talking about :) And that is a great area, in general.

    (I feel like I'm always playing the "where in Denver is Jess talking about game?" Ha ha!)

    Before we bought our current house we lived over near REI in LoHi - we could hear I-25 when our windows were open in the summer. And as someone who is a REALLY light sleeper and completely intolerant of noise, it really didn't bother me. I was more concerned about the pollution from the traffic (not to add to your worries!)

    I have a ton of thoughts about Denver real estate, which I won't subject you to here, but I will say that right now location is KEY. The market is really good in a select few neighborhoods (the one you're talking about being one of them) and terrible in others. Sure you could get a bigger, newer house in a nice quiet neighborhood in Aurora, but those are the areas where home values are depreciating. I would get what you can afford in a nicer neighborhood - your home value will only increase and if you DO have to sell, you won't have as many issues.

    And my final bit of advice - there is no such thing as the PERFECT house! At least for a first-time home buyer with limited resources :)

    Good luck. And P.S. we loved our realtor!

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  27. I agree, for the most part, with the other comments. I just wanted to add this. Consider resall value EVEN IF you consider this your "forever" house. My husband and I bought our forever (or at least long term!) house 3 years ago. After that, our plans for our family changed. We went from one kid to [almost] 5 in that time and now the house is feeling a bit cramped.

    All I mean is that you just don't know where your life might go (including, losing your jobs, taking new ones in another area, moving out of the country, etc.) and you want to make sure that you can sell your house.

    Living that close to a highway will affect your resale. However, if you are buying low enough now (which you should be in this market) if should just (hopefully be) a proportionate issue.

    Good luck! :) Great time to buy for sure!

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  28. We almost bought a very similar house - our dream house, but we could afford it, because it was right by the interstate.
    We're all different, but I am really glad we didn't buy that house.
    The best advice we got when we bought was that you can change EVERYTHING about a house except the location. The location is, unfortunately, the very most important thing, it really is. We ended up buying a much smaller house that needed some work, in a fabulous fabulous location, and couldn't be happier.
    The other great advice we got was that there are no perfect houses - you will have to compromise somewhere. But I would highly recommend NOT compromising on location.

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  29. I am not really going to answer the question. I just wanted to point out that you can always add hardwood floors and a fireplace.

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  30. Forget the realtors opinion, there are too many variables as to why she would say what she did, including greed so she can sell you a more expensive home.

    Although resale value should not be something that is a high priority for what house you buy, don't totally discount it either. Things do change.

    It seems to me that if this house everything you want and that the proximity tot he highway is the only drawback, you should do what your mom suggested and keep looking at other homes in the interim. The right answer will come to you.

    If you need some further insight, let me know and I will do a quick reading for you with the Tarot. Email me at raven@tarotraven.com

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  31. I haven't read the other comments, so forgive me if I repeat.

    First, don't trust the realtor to have your best interests in mind. They make money off sales, not buyers' happiness. Some might want you to be happy to encourage repeat or referral business, but right now I'd think that they are anxious to close another deal to pay their own mortgage. So you are right to do your own research on whether you can find a comparable property for a good price.

    Second, you addressed my concerns about living next to an interstate: accidents and privacy. The wall takes care of that. I really think you would probably get used to the noise. If not, you can at least tolerate it for five years or so while setting aside extra money saved by having such a low interest rate and hopefully the market will pick up and you could be in a better position to sell it and put a sizable down payment on a quieter neighborhood.

    Third, it's YOUR HOME. If you (as in, you and Torsten, the people who are going to be living there for the next 30 years) are in love with it, nobody else's opinion should matter.

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  32. I know nothing about the housing market in Denver, but the house does sound great. If everything else about the location is good I echo the other comments to talk with neighbors and visit at different times of the day to see about the noise.

    I grew up in a neighborhood with a train track alongside it and I NEVER noticed the train unless friends who were visiting pointed it out. In both the houses I have lived in as an adult, I have been MUCH more bothered by the people who drive their cars squealing around the corner with the radio blaring and bass turned up loud enough to rattle our windows than I ever was by that train. There will always be some unknowns about a house/neighborhood. We've had some fairly significant problems with our backyard neighbors, so the idea of no one behind us would appeal to me!

    Good luck!

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  33. I have lived close to expressways, airport flight paths and traintracks. All became white noise fairly quickly. I'd trade a little background noise for not having the possibility of horrible neighbors behind me in a heartbeat--there's NO getting used to that, I know from experience.

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  34. While the wall will keep accidents from coming into your backyard, you still might have emergency vehicles (with sirens!) and such.

    Also, I'd consider air pollution so close to the highway. I worked on a legal case with a community right near a highway, and many residents and health-care workers in the area were concerned about childhood asthma there. It could also impact what plants will thrive there.

    With all that said, every house has pros and cons and if you can deal with the cons, then it sounds great. You're right in thinking that you'd get used to the noise--I lived in the flight path to National airport for a few months (really close--we could see the landing gear on the planes as they went by) and I hardly noticed it. But houseguests definitely were bothered.

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  35. I agree with Janssen- I hate driving, so for me the convenience of living so near the highway would outweigh the annoyance of it.

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  36. This may have already been said since I didn't have time to read all the comments, but if you haven't signed on with her yet, she's not really your realtor.

    She's not going to work hard for you until she's under contract so that when you DO buy a house she'll get the benefit - that IS the only way she gets paid, after all, so you can't blame her. But if you don't like her now, you SHOULDN'T sign her on. You should go see a few other houses with a few other realtors and go with one of them. And have another realtor or two take you to THIS house and see what THEY say.

    It's also true that a realtor who has sold houses in that area might have some better insights into the downside of living near the highway that you wouldn't even think of until a few years down the road when you have a toddler playing in the backyard, so their opinions aren't worthless, but of course you have to make your own decision. I second (or third or tenth) the idea of talking to the neighbors!

    Another good bit of advice I got was to visit the neighborhood at different times of day to just see what things feel like. For example, we happened to visit one house right in the late afternoon on the first really warm Saturday of this year, and so there were kids playing outside and neighbors standing around chatting, and it was wonderful. If we had visited a week earlier, we never would have seen that. So if we like the house we're visiting tonight, I'm definitely going to drive past it again the next nice afternoon to see if it's a good community.

    Final word of advice: We've fallen into and out of love with three houses already, and we were thinking our house hunt would be quick. You're saying you want to take it slow - what are the chances that the one and only perfect house for you is available just when you decided to start looking? Wait a few more months like you were planning. You'll fall in love with other houses if you don't get this one, and they will be even more perfect.

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  37. Umm. Ditch the volunteer agent. They are supposed find homes in your range, and looking out for your needs and she isn't interested in doing that. She is desperate to sell you something you don't want so that she can make a dime. She is trying to steer you in a direction she wants you to go.

    If you don't have a problem with the noise, then you don't have a problem with the noise. BUT I wouldn't make any hasty decisions, talking to other people who live on the street is a good idea.

    Also, if there is one deal in this market, there are others...

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  38. I have a realtor that I used three different times and loved if you would like his information.

    If this is the PERFECT house for you guys and you don't think that you would mind the highway, then your realtor should tell you about the downside to buying it, but ultimately, it is your decision.

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  39. Hmm, sounds like the realtor is looking at her best interests only. Meaning what she stands to gain if she sells you a higher priced home. Remember they earn money off of sales and purchases. So, I would be very adamant about finding a realtor that is going to truly listen and find what you need. They're hard to come by, but surely exist.

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  40. My first question would be, are there ANY plans on widening said highway anytime in the future? If not, then you probably have found a great deal and won't even notice the noise once you move in. Our home is the second block from the freeway and very soon will be just like the house you found, one block off with a brick wall because they are widening the freeway. I was up in arms at first but Hubby pointed out that now we will have no neighbors behind us and we never notice the noise anyway and we've been here 18 years. I guess my advice is don't listen to the realtor, listen to your gut!

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  41. Like other commentors, I am wary of this realtor and who she is looking out for.

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  42. You should also take into consideration that realtors work on *commission*... so she may just be prodding you to see if she can get you to buy a more expensive house and thus make more money from the sale herself.

    Talking to another realtor about the same house would also give you a basis for comparison.

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  43. Your realtor is doing you a favor and being totally upfront with you.

    The first house I bought was 4 blocks away from a large freeway. My realtor at the time pointed that out to me and told me it may be a concern, but I didn't think it would.

    BIG MISTAKE!

    Sleeping with the windows open always had traffic noise. ALWAYS. And yes, we did get used to it but being that close to the freeway (and the cars and their exhaust) meant we were always cleaning our windows, curtains and drapes.

    So many times we were woken from a sound sleep by car crashes ( I lived in San Jose, CA right near 101).

    Bottomline, I think your realtor wants to make sure she is fully disclosing everything so you won't hate her after the fact if you do buy this house...which looks GORGEOUS, btw.

    Welcome to Denver. It is awesome here and I hope whatever house you DO buy is everything you hoped for and more.!

    Kath

    (by way of Rosalicious)

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  44. I think highway sounds would be annoying at first but then you'd probably start to notice it less and less and that 'whooshing' sound could be great for lulling a baby to sleep!

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